Talk:Avalon

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A category has been created and linked where appropriate. -Zyll 21:36, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

Anyone have any input on which areas might thematically fit better with Avalon than with Almeria? Due to the fact that once everything is done, Camelot will be moved to Avalon, I figured that it might be useful/appropriate to move the Green Chapel to Avalon as well, since it was based upon (at least partially) the tales of the Green Knight. I do not know the exact inspiration for Arborlon, but I could make that work as well. Thoughts? --Bladestorm 13:37, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I think the Green Chapel is a natural Avalon project; Arborlon, not so much. One thing about Avalon is that it's basically a buffer between Almeria and Ahrikol's Esartur, across the ocean to the east, so it should be a kinda tough, militarized kind of place that views Almeria as soft. Like the human cities near Mordor in Tolkein. Arborlon seems to be this sheltered fey-races homeland type place, and probably wouldn't last long on Avalon. —Chaos 13:53, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm in two minds about Jhan, on one side it is one of the few real cities near Losthaven which would be allied with it, on the other hand it's had a close relationship with Camelot since the very beginning. I think they Questors and Justicars relationship of being /pure/ order to the point of accepting evil races and guilds is actually perhaps not fitting in with my idea of what would be acceptable to the background. I see them as being zealots and even a few slipping so far as to be 'evil', but not in the obvious 'we have a ringwraith protector'. I don't think it'd be necessarily frowned upon or being a limit to joining your good/evil alignment but I think certain guilds and too obviously evil races/guilds WOULD be prohibited. Basically I see Jhan as being the ally of Camelot but more hardcore. I think they're the Crusader Bastits who fight fire with fire and in effect there' little difference between them and the.... I can go on for hours I think without being any clearer, but I hope you get what I mean. As my old astronomy teacher used to say: In resume I think Jhan is a part of Avalon. --Aedhan 20:36, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Just opinions: 1) Jhan is more order-y than goody. You can be barely good and Tyr will tolerate you, but if you're not ordered up the arse Strom and the Justicars'll get all bent out of shape. See guild skills like order favour.

Contrast with Knights, they're all about the holy. Holy purity, fortitude, etc. Order is obviously important to them, but they're more about the good.

They're just on different places on the whole scheme of things.

2) Jhan can tolerate Merethus because he's all about the order. He's slightly insane, but nothing about him screams evil. And the Ringwielders are pretty...sly...these days. They're more about the subtle corruption-for-power tradeoff then the in-your-face evil of a Reaper. Merethus, is, in essence, a plant.

Just a reminder, but please be sure to sign your comments, if for no other reaon than to be able to tell where one person ends and another starts... Just because Jhan and Camelot are separated by a body of water doesn't mean they cannot be allies. We can take it as a gesture of good will that Camelot has sent a knight representative to Jhan and to Shantaari. England had representatives in Germany and France, but that didn't mean Paris was on the island of England.

With the new placement of Camelot and Devonshire much closer to Esartur, I may have to change their overall feel of these two cities. Camelot may have to change from the brilliant golden city of the land of eternal summertime, and be more of a gritty militant city that has an entire large island to protect. They will have to contend with barbaric invaders from the north, armies of dark warriors from Esartur in the east, pirates and vikings invading from the seas, and their own internal lawbreakers. I have also contenplated changing the captain of the guard in Devonshire to being a retired Knight or Justicar (with a name, no less). I like the Devonshire murder quest, and the fact that the guard is stretched thin with other issues that they must request the help of passing adventurer's to assist with some of the crime-solving. If possible, I'd like to change the populace of both cities enough so that I can add in miniquests like the ones in Corna, and maybe make use of Erebus's task system. Also with the current quests, I'd like to spread out the areas of the quests. I see little reason to keep the Forest of Iniquity within the walls of Camelot, and all of the areas associated with the Psyruxial Sphere quest may end up being a bit less centralized.--Bladestorm 11:22, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

(Signing comments is done with ~~~~, FYI.) I am iffy about Jhan as Avalonian too. Camelot and Jhan appear to be allies, but I dunno if they're friends, especially given Camelot being devoted to Yehovah. (Will need to address that with Devonshire, too, hopefully by dissociating the Clerics from there.) On the other hand, Yehovah's outlook is heavily influenced by Tyr's, so there may be some close association. I think I'd still prefer that the bulk of the Tyrites be on the mainland of Almeria, maybe with a military outpost on Avalon, though. —Chaos 11:26, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm with you on the more hardcore Camelot. There should be a sense that they have the Knights of the Round Table because they need them. The outlook should be positive and there can be a sense that Camelot is blessed, but it's a positivity coming from that they're dealing successfully with their extremely serious problems, not that everything's a happy-go-lucky land of milk and honey. —Chaos 11:29, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Okay, so for Avalon, I need to include Camelot, Devonshire, the Sphere Quest locations (Bartziluth's lair, Twilight gap, Temple of Ilsidahur, Southern fort, mer area), Green Chapel, a watchtower/fort on the north shore and east shore to watch for approaching ships, Forest of Iniquity, and the Straits of Avalon. I'll also need some places set aside for any higher level quests/campaigns for knights or clerics. I am not totally enamoured with the whole merman area, so that may get changed to something a little more appropriate.--Bladestorm 13:18, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, I agree with your solutions of the Jhan/Camelot situation. What about having the Questors in Avalon? Sort of a detached force? That's just a suggestion though. Another thing with splitting the area into definitive 'realms', Erebus' nice little Losthaven Guards can be realm-orientated rather than city orientated and approriately tweaked versions being available for all the realms. An Avalonian HeartGuard etc. --Aedhan 14:28, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

HeartGuard? That sounds like something you'd buy at the pet store.  ;P --Bladestorm 14:43, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Location summary sounds basically right. If we can, as I hope, establish that Avalonian culture is Yehovite and de-Clericize Devonshire, then the Temple of Ilsidahur will probably be something else. The Straits of Avalon are the strip of the Atalantic Ocean between Almeria and Avalon, so will presumably be shared between the Almeria and Avalon maps. —Chaos 16:48, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Also, it's not that Avalon is exactly close to Esartur, just that it's on the Esartur-ward side of Almeria. There's a lot of Atalantic Ocean between Almeria/Avalon and Esartur. —Chaos 16:50, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Okay, here's one option for how to handle a couple of issues arising from separating Avalon. Moving Camelot with make a void in that section of the map, which is actually really close to the docks that are now used to ferry people across the ocean. The clerics should be moved out of Devonshire, with a slight name change. I can, at some point, set up another port city that can be located where the eastern dock is now. This will fill in the city gap on the map, and provide a port city that can be the new home of the clerics, as well as a medley of other religions and religious influences. This port city may not end up being as big as Devonshire, but once I figure out how to code this first port city, the second should be able to be coded much faster, especially since a lot of my work now is getting the ancient Devonshire code up to date. It would also probably be beneficial to go ahead and recode Almeria into a 3d map to match some of the newer areas coming out, and to better mesh with the 3d areas that I am currently working on. With the dual port cities, I can then set up a much better ferrying system that can be a stand-in until we get actual shipboard mechanics in place, and I can do a lot of tie-ins between the two cities. Plus, I like the idea of having a port city where the current dock is because it would logically fit there. There is already a road leading there from Losthaven, it is about the right distance from Halfmoon Bay, the other port city on the Eastern coast, and it is a common occurance for settlements to crop up around a promonine feature. It may only be a matter of time before some entrepreneur decides to set up either a tavern or item shop at the west sign post. --Bladestorm 15:17, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

What about individuals that are currently set in Almeria that may thematically suit Avalon better, like the Grey Mouser or Souma?--Bladestorm 11:17, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

If they aren't particularly strongly rooted, sure, move 'em. Souma certainly needs a good home. The Grey Mouser is maybe better just re-executed as a non-derivative concept than moved. —Chaos 17:39, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Hmm....I was looking over some of the main maps of England for some inspiration for my mapping and land types. England has a series of standing stone circles. I was contemplating adding such circles into Avalon, with maybe the slimmest chance of reviving the long lost paladins. The raw concept of the paladins just does not fit in with any conception of Avalon, Camelot, or Devonshire. The only place I could remotely place them, from what I remember of them, would be in a slightly modernized version of London, or to expand out the map a little to include the monster that dwells within the dark depths of the Loch of Ness.

Then I was thinking of which guilds would be suitable to have representation in Avalon. Obvious choice is the knights, with a hesitant acceptance of the clerics for now, and the sentinels, solely because they are based in Devonshire. What else could be indicative of some of the other guilds?

• Azure Magi - Well, at the very least, Avalon has a sky, and some of the shops will have reagents that the magi need for their spells. Conceptually, I may be able to use an azure of two in a high tower to assist in creating favourable winds for sailing vessels.

• Battleragers - The closest that I can come conceptually to this guild would be the hired mercenaries brought in to help augment what was left of the military guard after Imperia withdrew its troops, and before the knights were formed to safeguard the people. Game-wise, I never really understood the concept behind the ragers other than a means of doing massive amounts of damage and gaining xp quickly.

• Brutes - Brutes, to me, seem like hired muscle more than anything else, and that concept can have a place almost anywhere. Mechanically, I can't think of much that would draw a Brute to Avalon other than the promise of different types of beer to sample.

• Clerics - Since the Avalonian culture is predominantly Filialtri and Yehovist, these pagans are nothing but a throwback to more primitive times, much like the witches and druids that still haunt the wildlands of the island. These traditions are too far entrenched in the island itself to be completely done away with, but Yehovah will have the largest and most impressive temple in any major city, and probably the only temple in the smaller hamlets.

• ELF - Yeah...the concepts behind the elder gods and a Yehovist society don't exactly mix well. Dunno if I can do anything with this guild.

• Elflords - They may not be human, but at least Yehovah sees it fit to save their souls. Wandering bands of the elven folk may be found in the deeper woods of the island, and the island itself has a long association with the fey. Plus, the elflords have allied themselves against Ahrikol, so the ones in Avalon may be their forward scouts and advanced war parties preparing for the imminent invasion from Esartur.

• Green Lanterns - The only use they would have for Avalon would be as a forward staging area for their troops en route to Esartur. Mechanically, I cannot think of much that would bring them to Avalon, especially with the huge arsenal (a huge arse arsenal if you will) of steel weapons and massive amounts of steel armour used by the troops here.

• Hawkmen - <insert cricket noises> I'll need some help with this guild.

• Justicars - They may be orderly, but they are not godly in any sense of Yehovah's sanctimony, but they do make courageous warriors, and may have a minor place in some of the outposts that border the more dangerous areas.

• Kazarak - I can't think of much that a Kazarak would want in a place that has very few magickal items and where the defenders have the highest numbers of possible means of turning undead.

• Aisenshi - Warriors of the east, even though their island is west...other than to pick up a new weapon or two, I see no real reason for them to visit.

• Knights - The defenders of Camelot are right at home in Avalon, serving as protectors of the entire island. Ideas abound concerning this guild. Defensing the entire island is a big task, especially since you have to repel the invading barbarians from the north, fend off the forces of Ahrikol from the east, and succor the peasants from the vile workings of the green knight, black knight, red knight, Morgana, Mordred, and Vivien, among others. Plus there are all of the possible internal guild quests involving the far reaches of the island, war campaigns, and courtly treachery to deal with.

• Sentinels - Well, they are based out of Devonshire, and Devonshire is one of the few cities that has been developing any aspect of clockworks, steam power, and electrical power. Of any of the current cities, Sentinels should feel most at home in the newer version of Devonshire.

• Lupines - I could see a small pack of garou still hunting in the deep woods of Avalon..the last few remnant of a much larger pack/several packs that were hunted to near extinction by the indigenous hounds.

• Nizari - Avalon holds the potential for a lot of new marks, even if the culture is far different from the exotic origins of the guild. Still, the Avalonian Royal Navy may have inadvertently brought back a few Nizari on accident in a colonization attempt of the Nizari homelands.

• Malefici - What better place for the adversaries of Yehovah than in the culture dedicated to his worship? Preying on peasants, friars, and noblemen alike, the Malefici will be in no short supply of targets. Let's just hope they do not ingrain themselves in the local politics, or else they may end up corrupting the church itself, causing good abbots and bishops to lust for women and gold and defy their holy vows.

• Outsiders - All this talk of Pattern walking, amber, and the courts of chaos has no place in the holy city.

• POEE - Do they even have a point? Mages of chaos do not fit well in the natural order of things nor in Yehovah's commandments. With no higher calling than to accumulate slack, they have little to expect from Avalon.

• Rangers - There is always a need for those knowledgeable in the ways of the deep forest, for Avalon has large expanses of oak groves that the rangers can feel at home in. Mechanically, there will be all manner of beasts that the rangers can bond with.

• Reapers - See the commentary for the Kazarak.

• Red Magi - While there will be plenty of things to burn, neutrality may not go over well in a nation devoted to good. Still, their magicks may be of some use, especially once Devonshire fully develops their new gaslight system for supplying light to the city streets.

• Ringwielders - Vile agents from Esartur should be hunted down and exterminated with the same prejudice shown to the skaven. Don't let them get a foothold on our blessed isle.

• Shapeshifters - Meh...maybe they'll see some action once Imperia is released.

• Travelers - <crickets>

• White Magi - Don't know how well they'll fit in, whatever incarnation they appear as.

--Bladestorm 21:32, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Avalon has been progresing behind the scenes. The more it progresses, the farther away the release date gets. The Temple of Gaia and Bartziluth's Lair have been moved from Devonshire into Avalon proper, which means the current Devonshire will have to be replaced or heavily modified as well. Twilight Tower is being updated significantly, so that it is an area in and of itself, and part of the Pzyruxial Sphere quest as a side bonus. Fort Bragg and the Temple of Ilsidahur will also have to be added and updated, and I am hesitant to include Vestitus's realm.--Bladestorm 14:32, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Re: White Magi - If this guild ever appears again I think they'd need a major thematic rethink. Away from 'ice' and more towards good. A mix of priests and wizards. If I remember right they were saintly/ordered, I don't see any reason why that should mean ice-spells. I'd see them having a tower in Avalon's capital city and being major advisors to the Court. --Aedhan 09:04, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

There has been a bit of a paradigm shift away from that original model of just White/Red/Black representing Good/Neutral/Evil, repectively. Erebus is wrking on revamping what used to be the white magi into the Ordo Verbus Glacia (or something close to that) and from what he has told me of it, they are pulling quite a bit away from the old concept of just ice magic. The Red Magi are slated as neutral because they are based around the element of fire, which doesn't care about right or wrong, just burn everything. The Black Magi are still just thoughts on paper for a majority of the dev corps. If it turns out that I get around to it before anyone else, I'll have to figure out how their chosen color of black fits in with everything else, especially since I also have tentative plans for darkly-aligned clerics, sorcerors, updating the Malefici, necromancers, undead summoners. and a few other affiliations that have less-than-friendly intentions. The political/military seat of power as Avalon stands now would be Camelot, with the trade center being Devonshire. As more cities are developed this may shift a little, but probably not by much.--Bladestorm 11:48, 18 August 2008 (EDT)