Racial viability
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| Races in Lost Souls begin the game with a varied amount of attributes. In some cases, their effective attribute totals at level one have a counter-intuitive association with their effective total attributes. Following the chart will be an attempt to determine the value of assimilativity in relation to starting attribute totals, taking into consideration the diminishing returns one experiences with developing their attributes throughout their character's life. | Races in Lost Souls begin the game with a varied amount of attributes. In some cases, their effective attribute totals at level one have a counter-intuitive association with their effective total attributes. Following the chart will be an attempt to determine the value of assimilativity in relation to starting attribute totals, taking into consideration the diminishing returns one experiences with developing their attributes throughout their character's life. | ||
| - | Size has been minimized in each circumstance, as the author feels high size in most cases is a burden rather than a benefit. In fact, from a purely functional perspective, the only real benefit size can offer is the wielding of two-handed weapons and tower shields in a single hand, as well as a small size bonus to damage in physical combat. The loss of ability to dodge attacks beyond the early and mid-game is considered to be highly unrecommended, and is not offset by large hitpoint totals because without methods of healing or regenerating easily, hitpoints become less and less important, and more or less simply a time buffer before you reach the point of fleeing combat. If you are getting noticably hurt, it is likely you can not use your time effectively against that opponent, barring forms of regeneration or healing as mentioned before. | + | Size has been minimized in each circumstance, as the author feels high size in most cases is a burden rather than a benefit. In fact, from a purely functional perspective, the only real benefit size can offer is the wielding of two-handed weapons and tower shields in a single hand, as well as a small size bonus to damage in physical combat (''This is false, increased size combined with natural armour produces extremely high damage resistance. -- Marcosy''). The loss of ability to dodge attacks beyond the early and mid-game is considered to be highly unrecommended, and is not offset by large hitpoint totals because without methods of healing or regenerating easily, hitpoints become less and less important, and more or less simply a time buffer before you reach the point of fleeing combat. If you are getting noticably hurt, it is likely you can not use your time effectively against that opponent, barring forms of regeneration or healing as mentioned before. |
| There was a time when attributes were, in a sense "less" meaningful in Lost Souls. Much of the loose association between learning rate - "assimilativity" - and attribute totals were programmed in those days, with only slight variation since. Since the major code upgrade many years ago, which created skill limitations based on attribute totals (specialty access), it has made things very difficult for the player - particularly the new player. Most guilds and associations have very high specialty "ceilings" in only one or two stats, and with the diminished returns that exist, it makes it incredibly difficult to accumulate the kind of power necessary to keep advancing noticeably as one reaches near hero and beyond. Without noticeable advancement, characters have a tendency to stagnate without incredible amounts of time investment, or highly specialized "esoteric" knowledge of the game and world. | There was a time when attributes were, in a sense "less" meaningful in Lost Souls. Much of the loose association between learning rate - "assimilativity" - and attribute totals were programmed in those days, with only slight variation since. Since the major code upgrade many years ago, which created skill limitations based on attribute totals (specialty access), it has made things very difficult for the player - particularly the new player. Most guilds and associations have very high specialty "ceilings" in only one or two stats, and with the diminished returns that exist, it makes it incredibly difficult to accumulate the kind of power necessary to keep advancing noticeably as one reaches near hero and beyond. Without noticeable advancement, characters have a tendency to stagnate without incredible amounts of time investment, or highly specialized "esoteric" knowledge of the game and world. | ||
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| Note: The minimum size value has not been included in the math, as different size values mean differently depending on the race in question. | Note: The minimum size value has not been included in the math, as different size values mean differently depending on the race in question. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ''Some things to think about: not all stats are created equal (nobody cares about str, everybody wants more int) and races have more than just stats (traits/extra attacks etc). -- Marcosy'' | ||
| + | |||
| + | ''I pretty much disagree with the entirety of this article, but I suppose its useful for people who feel like they need to have a spreadsheet and a graph for everything. As Marcosy pointed out, there is more to each race, its advantages and disadvantages, than assim and stat points. This extends even beyond racial abilities and nuances and into what equipment is possible to use, affiliation choices, play style, pairing with certain empathic bonds, and so on! -- Nilten/Puff/et al.'' | ||
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| + | ''I'm also gonna throw my two pesos into here and mention that this is a simulationist environment first, and a game second, and as such mechanical balance only comes into the picture when there's a distinct problem that affects everyone, it's realistic to assume not every being is considered to be on equal footing... especially the kobolds. -- Xaolyn | ||
| Alphabetical List | Alphabetical List | ||
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| Skaven: 371 120 491 | Skaven: 371 120 491 | ||
| Slaan: 351 150 501 -1 | Slaan: 351 150 501 -1 | ||
| - | Sleestak: 375 148 523 | + | Sleklith: 375 148 523 |
| Svirfneblin: 435 112 547 | Svirfneblin: 435 112 547 | ||
| Thond: 437 122 559 6 | Thond: 437 122 559 6 | ||
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| [[Quess]]: 458 115 573 | [[Quess]]: 458 115 573 | ||
| [[Skaven]]: 371 120 491 | [[Skaven]]: 371 120 491 | ||
| - | [[Sleestak]]: 375 148 523 | + | [[Sleklith]]: 375 148 523 |
| [[Svirfneblin]]: 435 112 547 | [[Svirfneblin]]: 435 112 547 | ||
| [[Yeti]]: 371 110 481 | [[Yeti]]: 371 110 481 | ||
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| At this point, we must consider - how hard would it be for a level one gnome to level (or for a player to keep interest in the game) if he required nearly a million experience per level? | At this point, we must consider - how hard would it be for a level one gnome to level (or for a player to keep interest in the game) if he required nearly a million experience per level? | ||
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| + | ---- | ||
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| + | I thought it might be nice to provide a visual representation of the original author's ideas. The outlier in the far upper left corner is the kobold race, and amberites are in the far lower right. I know it's difficult to determine which dot represents which race, and it's not any easier after I had to cut off the top and bottom of the list. Those are Chaosborn in orange, Tuatha in pink, and Fomor in green nearest to Amberites in the lower right, and I believe those are Faries (Pixies) in the positive assimilativity but still rather far to the right in the green dot, with Aethoss below them and to the right. | ||
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| + | [[Image:LS_Chart.png]] | ||
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| + | And here is a list of races sorted by effective total attributes: | ||
| + | |||
| + | List by Effective Total | ||
| + | ---------------------- | ||
| + | Starting Points Remaining Effective Total Assimilativity | ||
| + | [[Amberite]]: 657 190 847 -20 | ||
| + | [[Fomor]]: 532 173 705 -13 | ||
| + | [[Tuatha]]: 543 143 686 -13 | ||
| + | [[Chaosborn]]: 476 194 670 -15 | ||
| + | [[Aethoss]]: 484 162 646 -1 | ||
| + | [[Pixie]]: 531 99 630 2 | ||
| + | [[Rachnei]]: 442 163 605 -5 | ||
| + | [[Dana]]: 506 87 593 -1 | ||
| + | [[Minotaur]]: 424 155 579 -3 | ||
| + | [[Quess]]: 458 115 573 | ||
| + | [[Zuth]]: 413 160 573 -6 | ||
| + | [[Phaethon]]: 436 134 570 -1 | ||
| + | [[Imp]]: 440 127 567 -5 | ||
| + | [[Kedeth]]: 408 158 566 -8 | ||
| + | [[Gnome]]: 459 104 563 8 | ||
| + | [[Drow]]: 466 96 562 -2 | ||
| + | [[Lothar]]: 441 118 559 -3 | ||
| + | [[Thond]]: 437 122 559 6 | ||
| + | [[Nyloc]]: 418 140 558 | ||
| + | [[Kielleth]]: 425 129 554 | ||
| + | [[Sekh]]: 412 140 552 -1 | ||
| + | [[Troll]]: 410 139 549 -2 | ||
| + | [[Duergar]]: 429 119 548 -1 | ||
| + | [[Kentaur]]: 413 134 547 | ||
| + | [[Svirfneblin]]: 435 112 547 | ||
| + | [[Aviar]]: 402 144 546 -1 | ||
| + | [[Domandan]]: 381 161 542 | ||
| + | [[Garou]]: 411 131 542 | ||
| + | [[Urln]]: 394 142 536 2 | ||
| + | [[Llelimin]]: 400 126 526 6 | ||
| + | [[Invae]]: 394 131 525 -1 | ||
| + | [[Sleklith]]: 375 148 523 | ||
| + | [[Advenus]]: 379 140 519 -4 | ||
| + | [[Orc]]: 369 150 519 | ||
| + | [[Dracon]]: 365 145 510 -2 | ||
| + | [[Human]]: 354 155 509 10 | ||
| + | [[Slaan]]: 351 150 501 -1 | ||
| + | [[Goblin]]: 346 150 496 15 | ||
| + | [[Skaven]]: 371 120 491 | ||
| + | [[Yeti]]: 371 110 481 | ||
| + | [[Ogre]]: 358 110 468 | ||
| + | [[Kobold]]: 214 100 314 30 | ||
| + | |||
| + | [[User:Einskaldjir|Einskaldjir]] 15:09, 6 November 2014 (EST) | ||
| [[Category: Guides]] | [[Category: Guides]] | ||
Current revision
Races in Lost Souls begin the game with a varied amount of attributes. In some cases, their effective attribute totals at level one have a counter-intuitive association with their effective total attributes. Following the chart will be an attempt to determine the value of assimilativity in relation to starting attribute totals, taking into consideration the diminishing returns one experiences with developing their attributes throughout their character's life.
Size has been minimized in each circumstance, as the author feels high size in most cases is a burden rather than a benefit. In fact, from a purely functional perspective, the only real benefit size can offer is the wielding of two-handed weapons and tower shields in a single hand, as well as a small size bonus to damage in physical combat (This is false, increased size combined with natural armour produces extremely high damage resistance. -- Marcosy). The loss of ability to dodge attacks beyond the early and mid-game is considered to be highly unrecommended, and is not offset by large hitpoint totals because without methods of healing or regenerating easily, hitpoints become less and less important, and more or less simply a time buffer before you reach the point of fleeing combat. If you are getting noticably hurt, it is likely you can not use your time effectively against that opponent, barring forms of regeneration or healing as mentioned before.
There was a time when attributes were, in a sense "less" meaningful in Lost Souls. Much of the loose association between learning rate - "assimilativity" - and attribute totals were programmed in those days, with only slight variation since. Since the major code upgrade many years ago, which created skill limitations based on attribute totals (specialty access), it has made things very difficult for the player - particularly the new player. Most guilds and associations have very high specialty "ceilings" in only one or two stats, and with the diminished returns that exist, it makes it incredibly difficult to accumulate the kind of power necessary to keep advancing noticeably as one reaches near hero and beyond. Without noticeable advancement, characters have a tendency to stagnate without incredible amounts of time investment, or highly specialized "esoteric" knowledge of the game and world.
This table is intended as a guideline to help both new and veteran players find the most "efficient" races from a power-gaming standpoint, and nothing more. Those who receive pleasure from the game by playing unique or different characters are often punished significantly in actual character strength - and while I believe it is interesting to play the game in this manner, I feel that for many players, not only do they want to play unique character types - they want to play unique character types with some degree of long-term viability, without stagnation or continuing to hunt the same handful of areas eternally - which eventually becomes almost a meaningless exercise from an experience accumulation standpoint. Certain mechanisms have been put in place to provide a break in the mindless murdering of the world's denizens, but they have yet to truly address the underlying issues, and besides, they are almost completely guild dependent.
Of course, this comes from a player who has spent far too long scouring the world, and truly, my enjoyment of the game probably ended long ago.
Note: The minimum size value has not been included in the math, as different size values mean differently depending on the race in question.
Some things to think about: not all stats are created equal (nobody cares about str, everybody wants more int) and races have more than just stats (traits/extra attacks etc). -- Marcosy
I pretty much disagree with the entirety of this article, but I suppose its useful for people who feel like they need to have a spreadsheet and a graph for everything. As Marcosy pointed out, there is more to each race, its advantages and disadvantages, than assim and stat points. This extends even beyond racial abilities and nuances and into what equipment is possible to use, affiliation choices, play style, pairing with certain empathic bonds, and so on! -- Nilten/Puff/et al.
I'm also gonna throw my two pesos into here and mention that this is a simulationist environment first, and a game second, and as such mechanical balance only comes into the picture when there's a distinct problem that affects everyone, it's realistic to assume not every being is considered to be on equal footing... especially the kobolds. -- Xaolyn
Alphabetical List ----------------- Starting Points Remaining Effective Total Assimilativity Advenus: 379 140 519 -4 Aethoss: 484 162 646 -1 Amberite: 657 190 847 -20 Aviar: 402 144 546 -1 Chaosborn: 476 194 670 -15 Dana: 506 87 593 -1 Domandan: 381 161 542 Dracon: 365 145 510 -2 Drow: 466 96 562 -2 Duergar: 429 119 548 -1 Faerie: 531 99 630 2 Fomor: 532 173 705 -13 Garou: 411 131 542 Gnome: 459 104 563 8 Goblin: 346 150 496 15 Human: 354 155 509 10 Imp: 440 127 567 -5 Invae: 394 131 525 -1 Kedeth: 408 158 566 -8 Kentaur: 413 134 547 Kielleth: 425 129 554 Kobold: 214 100 314 30 Llelimin: 400 126 526 6 Lothar: 441 118 559 -3 Minotaur: 424 155 579 -3 Nyloc: 418 140 558 Ogre: 358 110 468 Orc: 369 150 519 Phaethon: 436 134 570 -1 Quess: 458 115 573 Rachnei: 442 163 605 -5 Sekh: 412 140 552 -1 Skaven: 371 120 491 Slaan: 351 150 501 -1 Sleklith: 375 148 523 Svirfneblin: 435 112 547 Thond: 437 122 559 6 Troll: 410 139 549 -2 Tuatha: 543 143 686 -13 Urln: 394 142 536 2 Yeti: 371 110 481 Zuth: 413 160 573 -6
List by Assimilativity ---------------------- Kobold: 214 100 314 30 Goblin: 346 150 496 15 Human: 354 155 509 10 Gnome: 459 104 563 8 Llelimin: 400 126 526 6 Thond: 437 122 559 6 Faerie: 531 99 630 2 Urln: 394 142 536 2 Domandan: 381 161 542 Garou: 411 131 542 Kentaur: 413 134 547 Kielleth: 425 129 554 Nyloc: 418 140 558 Ogre: 358 110 468 Orc: 369 150 519 Quess: 458 115 573 Skaven: 371 120 491 Sleklith: 375 148 523 Svirfneblin: 435 112 547 Yeti: 371 110 481 Aethoss: 484 162 646 -1 Aviar: 402 144 546 -1 Dana: 506 87 593 -1 Duergar: 429 119 548 -1 Invae: 394 131 525 -1 Phaethon: 436 134 570 -1 Sekh: 412 140 552 -1 Slaan: 351 150 501 -1 Dracon: 365 145 510 -2 Drow: 466 96 562 -2 Troll: 410 139 549 -2 Lothar: 441 118 559 -3 Minotaur: 424 155 579 -3 Advenus: 379 140 519 -4 Imp: 440 127 567 -5 Rachnei: 442 163 605 -5 Zuth: 413 160 573 -6 Kedeth: 408 158 566 -8 Fomor: 532 173 705 -13 Tuatha: 543 143 686 -13 Chaosborn: 476 194 670 -15 Amberite: 657 190 847 -20
The most important point of all I would like to reiterate, is the problem of diminishing returns. Because each guild typically only utilizes one or two attributes, you will eventually hit a ceiling. The problem is that, while growth is quick for almost any character early on, you will quickly come to recognize how difficult it is to receive just -one- more specialty point in a given attribute. It may take you literally ten plus hours of focused play time to earn 20 more skill points (one specialty access after five specialty points.) For fighters, this may not be an insignificant amount if it is in a major skill related to combat. However, for magic users, any given spell may use five or six different skills - many of which come from the same statistic. Thus, growth is incredibly unnoticeable even with significant time investment -eventually-. This system does lend itself to jack-of-all-trade builds, however, if you speak to the most successful players, you will find that there are specific "builds" and "guilds" that are particularly powerful.
In the old system, all utilized skills continued to grow forever. This made -all- characters viable. This is not to say the specialty system is flawed, but it is this player's opinion that considerable thought should be placed in allowing for growth beyond specialty in given skills over time.
For instance, a solution to the problem would be a meshing of the systems. Consider specialization a form of focusing one's capacities into a specialized area, allowing for quick growth - but over time, even after you've reached the maximum of a given specialty, you would surpass it with "bonus" skill points that, even given an increase or decrease in specialty, would stay attached to the skill forever.
As a thought experiment, let us consider the Kobold. He begins the game at minimum size with 314 attribute points. Spread evenly across all attributes, he will have approximately 52 points in each. Every time he levels, he will receive 5 stat points. By the time he is a hero (level fifty) he will have 564 stat points total - a similar amount to a level one Gnome, who will only level about twice as slow as the Kobold in the first place. But that's not precisely the case. In fact, the Kobold will still have worse statistics than a level one gnome, because of diminishing returns. Even if he spread his points evenly for all 50 levels, he will likely have lost 10-20% of the total points, if not more.
At this point, we must consider - how hard would it be for a level one gnome to level (or for a player to keep interest in the game) if he required nearly a million experience per level?
I thought it might be nice to provide a visual representation of the original author's ideas. The outlier in the far upper left corner is the kobold race, and amberites are in the far lower right. I know it's difficult to determine which dot represents which race, and it's not any easier after I had to cut off the top and bottom of the list. Those are Chaosborn in orange, Tuatha in pink, and Fomor in green nearest to Amberites in the lower right, and I believe those are Faries (Pixies) in the positive assimilativity but still rather far to the right in the green dot, with Aethoss below them and to the right.
And here is a list of races sorted by effective total attributes:
List by Effective Total
----------------------
Starting Points Remaining Effective Total Assimilativity
Amberite: 657 190 847 -20
Fomor: 532 173 705 -13
Tuatha: 543 143 686 -13
Chaosborn: 476 194 670 -15
Aethoss: 484 162 646 -1
Pixie: 531 99 630 2
Rachnei: 442 163 605 -5
Dana: 506 87 593 -1
Minotaur: 424 155 579 -3
Quess: 458 115 573
Zuth: 413 160 573 -6
Phaethon: 436 134 570 -1
Imp: 440 127 567 -5
Kedeth: 408 158 566 -8
Gnome: 459 104 563 8
Drow: 466 96 562 -2
Lothar: 441 118 559 -3
Thond: 437 122 559 6
Nyloc: 418 140 558
Kielleth: 425 129 554
Sekh: 412 140 552 -1
Troll: 410 139 549 -2
Duergar: 429 119 548 -1
Kentaur: 413 134 547
Svirfneblin: 435 112 547
Aviar: 402 144 546 -1
Domandan: 381 161 542
Garou: 411 131 542
Urln: 394 142 536 2
Llelimin: 400 126 526 6
Invae: 394 131 525 -1
Sleklith: 375 148 523
Advenus: 379 140 519 -4
Orc: 369 150 519
Dracon: 365 145 510 -2
Human: 354 155 509 10
Slaan: 351 150 501 -1
Goblin: 346 150 496 15
Skaven: 371 120 491
Yeti: 371 110 481
Ogre: 358 110 468
Kobold: 214 100 314 30
Einskaldjir 15:09, 6 November 2014 (EST)
